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You are making a presupposition there that is a false one

Posted on: December 20, 2019 at 21:16:27 CT
JeffB MU
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I believe, and certainly one that you couldn't possibly know definitively.

You are asserting that there is no self-revelation, contrary to the testimony of many historical figures, including many who willingly suffered torture and horrible deaths rather than recant what they claimed to have seen and to have heard.

That presupposition also presupposes that "there is no God". Certainly if there is a God who created the universe and everything in it out of nothing He *could* reveal Himself to creatures He created, no? and if He could and many thousands over the centuries have claimed in no uncertain terms that He did, often despite major persecution because of it, why do you categorically reject that possibility?

Edited by JeffB at 21:19:48 on 12/20/19
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The nature of the universe. God or no god? - JeffB MU - 12/20 18:56:32
     lol (nm) - pickle MU - 12/21 08:09:37
          Your lack of ability &/or will to engage in a thoughtful, - JeffB MU - 12/21 11:00:38
     Arguments for the Existence of God... (Peter Kreeft) - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:06:26
          Let's look at the resurrection argument. How many - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:28:13
               Many current scholars believe that St. John did indeed - JeffB MU - 12/20 22:06:42
                    A lawyer? Who cares? There are also New Testament scholars - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 22:15:37
                         My point was that as a lawyer he felt that the evidence - JeffB MU - 12/20 22:16:47
                              And my point is a man who studied to be a preacher - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 22:31:18
                                   Do you know his name, or better yet have a link to his story - JeffB MU - 12/21 10:18:45
     IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS A BIG BANG - tigerfans3 MU - 12/20 20:57:04
          No. The big bang was the beginning of our visible - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:33:36
          I believe you are wrong...we will all find out one way or - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:03:54
     Is God not but of a variety of interpretations of the Energy - raskolnikov MU - 12/20 20:25:23
          that's utter horsecock. "god is energy"? so when "god" - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:50:15
          On what basis is the connection of a god and energy - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:38:24
               no, because all of the "proof" in the Bible wouldn't - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:56:24
                    Nm - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:08:48
                         there as many and diverse a field of gods as there are - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:30:19
                              There used to even be family Deities. Each family had their - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:32:00
                                   man needs gods to fill voids, as you know, matt. the only - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:35:06
     believe what you want - Ferg STL - 12/20 20:00:14
          Please expound. Do you believe that there is no God? - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:11:29
               I'm saying your post is based on your religious beliefs - Ferg STL - 12/20 21:03:25
                    What are your own beliefs? What are they based upon? - JeffB MU - 12/21 12:18:32
                    Evidence of God from Contemporary Science & Philosophy - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:08:45
                         so you post a link from a religious organization - Ferg STL - 12/20 21:17:24
               "believe there is no god" is like saying "believe there - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:41:37
                    A couple of points... 1. We can and should examine the - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:46:44
                         Logic and reason are nice. But most of the arguments - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:56:08
                              I don't have time to discuss, but am unclear about a - JeffB MU - 12/20 22:13:45
               What a convenient deflection and cop-out, since - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:15:26
                    Are we not and is the cosmos not defined by pulsing - raskolnikov MU - 12/20 20:27:21
                         so magically you translate energy to "god" and give i - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:45:37
                         I could just as well, and convincingly, said that my - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:33:18
                    He said that 'there is absolutely nothing in your post that - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:22:49
                         I may have misunderstood your point there.(nm) - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:27:21
                              ok, thanks for letting me know. (nm) - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:31:42
     RE: The nature of the universe. God or no god? - MOCO SON MU - 12/20 19:49:35
          you actually get it. I can at least respect that you accept - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:55:23
               I would say that faith is involved, but that it is in - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:17:31
                    Nm - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 20:36:13
                         Man can come to the conclusion through reason & philosophy - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:46:23
                              so it isn't faith now? lmfao (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:51:21
                                   The grace of faith is absolutely necessary. (nm) - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:09:50
                                        so...is it free will or does God give me the grace of - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:30:51
                                             It is not an either or proposition, but a both and one. We - JeffB MU - 12/21 10:21:02
                              Nm - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 20:47:50
                                   Not if our definition of the universe is all existence. - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:11:57
                                        That's the point. You assume there was an absolute - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:17:09
                                             and scientists who dispute the plausibility of those models - JeffB MU - 12/20 22:19:31
                                   no, if science ever shows that, the paradigm / myth will - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:51:57
                                        The Kalam Cosmological argument is so stupid. - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:02:01
                                             if a single one of them had a sliver of actual faith, they - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:02:52
                    that's rubbish. it's either faith or it's not jeff. is it - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:20:59
                         I think belief in God is something one can arrive at with - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:30:54
                              then why do you call it faith? (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:34:56
                                   All that we can know by reason is that 'there is a God': - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:49:01
                                        Jeff, Jesus or not there is no self-revelation, other - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 21:04:02
                                             You are making a presupposition there that is a false one - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:16:27
                                                  do you "believe" or "have faith" - you keep slipping (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:31:33
                                                       It is not an either or proposition, but a both/and one: - JeffB MU - 12/21 10:22:24
                                        who is "we"? (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:52:42
                                             Human beings... humanity. (nm) - JeffB MU - 12/21 11:01:12
                              You blew up any kind of argument by using the word "reason". - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:34:45
                                   I have to assume that you believe either that reason & faith - JeffB MU - 12/21 10:26:36
                    Ok, what is the reason. And how - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:20:08
               On the other hand, it seems that you judge my beliefs - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:14:08
                    your beliefs don't make you #hitty, the judging and - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:19:31
                         The beliefs are the CORE issue here. As you say, you are - JeffB MU - 12/21 10:57:38
          Do you realize that virtually all - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 19:53:55
               Everyone agrees that belief in God is based upon faith. But - DHighlander NWMSU - 12/20 20:00:09
                    lmfao. why is not believing in something an act of faith. - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:22:01
                    By chance or not we'll never know. Fact. So to - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:05:23
               Margarita #2? (nm) - Newcatbirdseat MU - 12/20 19:56:27
                    Nope. Decided to give it up for a beer and port. - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 19:59:20
               you're off the rails, that isn't faith and is utterly absurd - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:55:54
     RE: The nature of the universe. God or no god? - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:27:30
     That argument is a false dichotomy. - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 19:25:54
     I can believe there is a god. However, what - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 19:20:28
          'The Problem of Evil' is probably the strongest argument - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:08:44
               Nm - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 20:43:56
                    We all have beliefs. Unfortunately, some of those beliefs - JeffB MU - 12/21 11:09:34
               there isn't an argument against god. I don't need one. - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:39:26
                    This is a binary question. You must choose one or the other - JeffB MU - 12/21 11:30:22
          I think you're unaware what your words reflect. - Macgrantt MU - 12/20 20:06:40
               Ok. What do they reflect? Such a powerful force - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:11:53
                    GAT to not believe is then to conclude everything is random - Macgrantt MU - 12/20 20:21:42
                         false dichotomy and straw man - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:54:03
                         And to prove it has not been for eternity is - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:47:39
          How can one be angry at something you think doesnt exist? - Macgrantt MU - 12/20 19:54:52
               I don't see that I expressed anger, or disappointment, at - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:01:54
          So you believe you know what God should be. (nm) - Logan BAMA - 12/20 19:45:29
               No, since I could not possibly know what such a - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 19:51:10
                    Since you believe it's invented what you say is rational - Logan BAMA - 12/20 20:15:06
                         that isn't belief nor faith, that's history to you. You poi - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:47:16
                              I have faith because of what was written...as it was - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:00:25
                                   no offense, but that's like saying you have faith that - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:03:45
                                        The words I read...strengthened my faith which I gained - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:13:35
                                             you had no faith before words whether written or spoken - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:33:13
                                                  It is biblical that fathers teach their children. - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:42:42
                                   that isn't faith, that's education (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:01:41
                                        So for someone who is a non-believer...you seem to - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:26:47
                                             First, let's establish that your argument is essentiall - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:38:27
                                                  So...if I say I believe the bible is the word of god - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:47:11
                    much more rational than the alternative, to be sure. And yet - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:54:35
               lol, is that what he said? (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:48:02
          Do you have children? - MNTIGER MU - 12/20 19:34:56
               by free will you mean, if I don't do X and Y and believe - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:44:30
                    RE: by free will you mean, if I don't do X and Y and believe - MNTIGER MU - 12/20 20:22:08
                         well, by all means, explain this "free" will lol (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:35:45
               RE: Do you have children? - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 19:40:36
                    RE: Do you have children? - MNTIGER MU - 12/20 20:20:57
                    YOU MUST SUFFER! - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:45:06
               Do we have free will? - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 19:38:35
          vengeful, flawed, spiteful, thoughtless, indifferent, - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:29:08




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