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It isn't really an either or question, I think it is more of
Posted on: July 4, 2023 at 23:24:07 CT
JeffB MU
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a continuum. Super sinners to super saints. It is also on an individualized basis rather than the entire Church.
There are both sinners and saints in the Church and always have been. Individuals fall all along the spectrum and things aren't static. They can move up and down the spectrum over time.
Taking all of Her members and all of her priests and the pope into account the Church has also broadly speaking had both good periods where She shone brightly, and bad periods where scandals caused serious problems.
I think the Church has been suffering and is in a bad way right now, and Her leaders at the highest level, in particular the Pope and his closest advisors/collaborators seem to be leading the sheep astray.
I personally think this is likely where we are at in Church history:
From the Catechism:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm#675
The Church's ultimate trial
675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578
677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581
There are both sinners and saints in the Church and always have been. Individuals fall all along the spectrum and things aren't static. They can move up and down the spectrum over time.
Taking all of Her members and all of her priests and the pope into account the Church has also broadly speaking had both good periods where She shone brightly, and bad periods where scandals caused serious problems.
I think the Church has been suffering and is in a bad way right now, and Her leaders at the highest level, in particular the Pope and his closest advisors/collaborators seem to be leading the sheep astray.
I personally think this is likely where we are at in Church history:
From the Catechism:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm#675
The Church's ultimate trial
675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578
677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581
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It isn't really an either or question, I think it is more of - JeffB MU - 7/4 23:24:07