RE: Then maybe you too think government has a role.

Posted on: June 8, 2018 at 23:13:09 CT

Did Moses violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew?

Yes. God's law says, You shall not murder. But even before that, in Genesis 9, God said:

“Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man."

Moses was not acting in an official capacity as a government official, but as a personal avenger. He knew that he had committed murder, and that is why he fled to the desert.

"Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."

It does not say you need not be concerned about government executing God's wrath, it says, in addition to understanding that government is to exercise God's wrath, there is a second good reason to submit, and that is for conscience sake. It is not dismissing nor minimizing fear of God's wrath. It is adding a second quality reason to submit.

"Therefore, there are times when civil authority may need to be resisted. Either governmental abuse of power or the violation of conscience (or both) could precipitate civil disobedience. Of course, how and when we decide to resist civil authority is an entirely separate issue. And I will reserve that discussion for another time.

No. If you are going to put that out there, then you must give guidelines, limits, parameters, examples of the limits; with regard to how and when to resist. The failure here is to acknowledge that when people use Romans 13 to make the point about submission, you are assuming no limits on what they are saying, and offer the ludicrous examples of why you shouldn't obey them. That is insulting to the argument, and in most cases very likely putting words into people's mouths. I do not hold to a blank unconditional view of Romans 13, but the suggestion is that I do, because I invoked that particular passage. But when do I get to add to my statement at a later date, to clarify, before coming under attack for use of it? The author says, I get to clarify my statements later, but you who use Romans 13 don't get to clarify, define more precisely what you have said later. No, the author is stuck what he said, the same way he is trying to stick me without the opportunity to answer his objections.

"America’s "supreme Law" does not rest with any man or any group of men. America’s "supreme Law" does not rest with the President, the Congress, or even the Supreme Court. In America, the U.S. Constitution is the "supreme Law of the Land." Under our laws, every governing official publicly promises to submit to the Constitution of the United States. Do readers understand the significance of this distinction? I hope so."

This is one of the most offensive things I've ever heard a pastor say. The Supreme Law of the United States is THUS SAYS THE LORD!!!!! God's law is the supreme law of the land, and no man, or group of men, can supersede, supplant, or otherwise replace the authority of God's word in man's life. This goes back to my previous statement, about having an opportunity to expand my comments, and to set the record straight on the reach of the commands in Romans 13. You have fallen for the false standard of the Constitution as the final authority in the U.S. So has that pastor. You are in error. This is the very thing he railed against, but failed to notice, when he offered his false standard.

"Let every soul be subject unto the [U.S. Constitution.] For there is no [Constitution] but of God: the [Constitution] that be ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the [Constitution], resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For [the Constitution is] not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the [Constitution]? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For [the Constitution] is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for [the Constitution] beareth not the sword in vain: for [the Constitution] is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for [the Constitution is] God’s minister, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."

It says in Deuteronomy and in Revelation that we are not permitted to add to God's word, nor take away from His word, and there are serious punishment's for both. By altering the meaning, by substituting a word not used by God, nor intended by God, you both take away from the meaning, and add another different meaning to God's word, which He didn't include in His holy bible. It doesn't say controlling legal document. It says authority, and that is much broader than controlling legal document. It reads higher powers in the KJV. There are two words in the Greek text.

ὑπερέχω hyperéchō, hoop-er-ekh'-o; from G5228 and G2192; to hold oneself above, i.e. (figuratively) to excel; participle (as adjective, or neuter as noun) superior, superiority:—better, excellency, higher, pass, supreme.

ἐξουσία exousía, ex-oo-see'-ah; from G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely, magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence:—authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

God didn't vest ruling authority in a document, but to humans who run government. Those humans, in the case of the United States formed a document to outline their intentions for how government should be run, according to their fallible understanding. "We the people". God raises up presidents and congressmen the same way He raises up kings and governors. Daniel 2.

Daniel and his three friends did not object to amoral laws, only to laws which called for them to violate their relationship with God.

In addition, there is also the requirement to pray for the king, 1 Timothy 2, and honor the king 1 Peter 2. The king is the head of the government, established to execute God's justice. The president of the U.S. is the head of our government, and the leader of our military, the same as a king.

"Dear Christian friend, the above is exactly the proper understanding of our responsibility to civil authority in these United States, as per the teaching of Romans Chapter 13.

Sorry. No. It's not.

"Furthermore, Christians, above all people, should desire that their elected representatives submit to the Constitution, because it is constitutional government that has done more to protect Christian liberty than any governing document ever devised by man. As I have noted before in this column, Biblical principles form the foundation of all three of America’s founding documents: The Declaration of
Independence, The U.S. Constitution, and The Bill of Rights."

I want no part of my elected officials submitting to any law which says it is okay to butcher babies in the womb, be it constitutional or otherwise. This law is not superior to the law of God.

"The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore, and blatantly disobey, the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution."

Yes, people have blatantly ignored the supreme law of the land, thus sayeth the Lord. That is the core issue. Not that they ignored the flawed Constitution or other laws. First things first. Nothing comes before knowing God, and loving God. This is the supreme law of the land. That man doesn't acknowledge it or submit to it is irrelevant as to its priority over man made documents and laws.

"Now, how many of us Christians are going to truly obey Romans Chapter 13?"

Me, me, me!!!

Whoever tries to twist the meaning of Romans 13 into something not doable in the real world is a false prophet. Whoever follows it in concert with the whole counsel of God will walk in obedience to it, being led of the Spirit into all righteousness.

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him."









Edited by MizzouTigerz at 00:48:21 on 06/09/18